Without mincing words, US Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy on Thursday denigrated the US criminal justice system for the three prison scourges of long sentences, solitary confinement and overcrowding.

“It’s a continuing injustice of great magnitude,” Kennedy said during a conversation with Harvard Law School Dean Martha Minow at Wasserstein Hall in a room filled mostly with students.

Kennedy criticized long prison sentences for the high costs associated with them. (In California, where Kennedy is from, the cost per prisoner is $35,000 a year, he said.) He also said long sentences had a horrendous effect on people’s lives.

Solitary confinement, he said, “drives men crazy”. He called mandatory minimum sentences “terrible” and in need of reform. Sentences in the United States, he said, are eight times longer than sentences in some European countries for equivalent crimes. With over 1.5 million prisoners in federal, state and local prisons, the United States has the largest prison population in the world.

The worst thing, he says, is that no one pays attention to this wrong, not even the lawyers. “It’s everyone’s job to look into it,” he said.

Kennedy, LL.B. ’61, whose views on the court reflect a concern for liberty and dignity, has often been described as the high court’s vote on major issues. But during his interview with Minow, he said he hated being portrayed that way.

“Business fluctuates. I don’t know,” he joked, as the room burst into laughter.

A moderate conservative, Kennedy sided with the Court’s four liberal justices on social issues. The other four judges tend to be more conservative.

Appointed Associate Justice of the Court by President Ronald Reagan in 1988, Kennedy wrote the majority opinion on many of his tough decisions, such as the landmark decision that legalized same-sex marriage in the United States.

He also cast the deciding votes in Family planning c. Caseywhich confirmed the right to abortion even with new restrictions; Boumediene c. Bush, which extended the writ of habeas corpus to Guantanamo Bay detainees; and Lawrence v. Texaswho struck down state buggery laws.

Credit: Martha Stewart

When a student asked Kennedy what case he would like to be remembered for, he said he didn’t know the answer yet.

“I hope time will be a good judge,” he said.

Displaying a self-deprecating sense of humor, Kennedy said he remembered the cases he studied at HLS better than the cases he heard as a judge.

Explaining how he makes his decisions and writes his opinions, Kennedy says he always asks himself the question: how can he be a good judge on a daily basis? The law, he said, has a moral basis, and it is important to ask not just what the law is, but what the law should be.

“The law is discipline, ethics, philosophy and commitment,” he said.

In addition to his judicial duties, Kennedy taught law abroad, and this experience was crucial to his views on the importance of the rule of law and the American Constitution.

Credit: Martha StewartAmong the professors present were Richard Lazarus (left), Howard and Katherine Aibel law professor, and Lani Gunier, Bennett Boskey law professor (seated).

Credit: Martha Stewart

“As you move east outside of the United States, the law becomes more distant and authoritarian,” he said. “In the United States, the law is a promise. If you agree to follow an ethical course of action and are a good citizen, you will be free.

In Poland, he was struck by the students’ interest and knowledge of American law. In China, he was confused when many students said they wanted to go to law school.

“A lot of students said they were influenced by the movies,” he said. “I thought they had seen ‘Twelve Angry Men’, but it was ‘Legally Blonde’, which I had never heard of. I saw it afterwards. It’s a really good movie.”

Asked about his favorite professors at HLS, Kennedy mentioned Clark Byce, Ben Kaplan and Donald Turner. Of the judges he admires, he said he admires Earl Warren and Hugo Black.

Getting along with his colleagues on the bench, Kennedy said, was easy.

“As a lawyer, you are trained to disagree.”

This article originally appeared in the Harvard Gazette on October 22, 2015.